1 Islamic law does unambiguously oppose terrorism; this fellow hasn't obtained an ijaza (qualification/authorization to pronounce legal rules) from any Sunni or Shi'a Islamic seminary or university. In short, he does not have standing to make such pronouncements, just as David Koresh had no standing* to say what the Catholic Church believes Christianity to say. Of course, the Muslim community is one big blur to you, and you can't see these distinctions. *sigh*

Again, here is a clear explanation of how it works from an actual scholar.

2 So i'm supposed to take your scholar as opposed to this other scholar.

Your qualifications to tell me which scholar to believe are...

3 I happen to know something about Islamic theology and the various schools of thought out there, so it's not hard for me to distinguish who the crackpots are, and who the established scholars are. It's like any other professional or academic field-- you look at the person's qualifications, who they studied with, where (or if) they fit in the various mainstream schools of thought. There are 4 Sunni schools of thought, representing over 90% of the earth's Muslim population, while the rest are mostly represented by a few smaller Shi'a schools of thought. If one does not have training in one of these schools, one cannot make any rulings that can even pretend to represent anything close to proper Islamic teachings.

Here is a fatwa from a reputable Sunni site, which represents the mainstream.

The problem of unqualified radical Muslims issuing "fatwas" to express their personal grievances against the US (and against other Muslims as well) is well known, and the 8 major schools of thought, representing well over 99.9% of the earth's Muslims, are taking steps to curb it. Recently there was an unprecedented show of unity on the matter, including an alliance with Christians to clear up misconceptions. [URL: www.islam online. org/English/News/2005-07/07/article01.shtml ] This is a pretty major accomplishment, kind of like having Catholics, Orthodox Christians and all the main Protestant churches agree on something.

Why not add a couple of educated Muslim blogs to your daily reading? You'll get a better understanding of Islam and perhaps be better able to see when your right-wing buddies are just plain wrong. Mere Islam is a good place to start, written by a white, American, former US military Muslim who is I think around your age and writes clearly. Indigo Jo is written by younger Englishman who has been Muslim for several years. And Deenport.com is one of the largest portal sites out there. These are good starting points.

4 And I guess I am just supposed to take your word that you are some sort of expert.

Now, for what it is worth, there will be something going up shortly that you will appreciate.

5 The Cambridge professor which I linked to is one expert of many; I'm just repeating his comments. Follow the links, do some research of your own, consult with reptuable professors in the field, and you'll come to the same conclusion, if you permit yourself...

6 Another expert you can turn to: Alan Godlas, professor at the University of Georgia and perhaps America's strongest authority on Islam. He runs one of the most academic comprehensive sites on Islam, which includes this page specifically devoted to the issue of terrorism. This has links to many useful articles.

And since you're so happy to see condemnations... here you go:

http://www.notinthenameofislam.com/

http://www.notinthenameofpeace.com/

Why not spread these links amongst the right-wingers? They'll love 'em.

7 Also from Britain today:
Sunnis in Britain condemn London bombings

Britain's largest Sunni Muslim group on Sunday issued a binding religious edict, a fatwa, condemning the July 7 suicide bombings as the work of a "perverted ideology."

The Sunni Council denounced the bombings as anti-Islamic and said the Quran, the Muslim holy book, forbade suicide attacks.
...
More than 2,000 Sunni clerics, scholars and community leaders attended Sunday's meeting, which was scheduled before the bombings.

8 Ok. Let's hear from them forbading the use of suicide attacks by the Hamas against Israelis.

9 mcconnell: they forbid all suicide attacks, whereever they may occur, including Israel. Don't forget that it's even more necessary to find a just settlement for the Palestinians, who have suffered far more at the hands of the Israeli occupation, thus creating such desperate hatred in the first place.

10 This Isrealie occupation you speak of, whos land are they occupying?

I have yet to find anywhere in any History book about the country Palestine.

What constitutes the current Isreal Nation, Country, is a land that has been conquered many, many times, dating back to the Pharoahs of Egypt.

No time in between was it a country called Palestine. Though it was given some Arabic names to piss of the Jews a few times, by countries that had conquered the land.

If you look in Isreal right now you will see MANY Palestinians working/living/playing right next to Isrealies. They do not hate each other, and live quite peacefully.

Now talk about those claiming Isreal is Palestinian land, a small minority of Palestinians, but a majority of the Arabic Countries around Isreal that have promised to push the Isrealies into the sea.

Yes the Arabic countries must come out stronger against Terrorism, and until they do, no amount of reading about Muslims will change the fact, they DO support Terrorism.

Imagine the outcry if the Southern Baptist Convention did not speak out against Terrorism by a select few nutjobs that may decide to bomb an abortion clinic.

It happened, and ALL true Christian Religions came out against those bombings.

Yet you DO NOT see that with the Muslims coming out against Terrorism, especially against the US and Isreal.

11 No. Not if it suits their ideological needs.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/006430.php


BTW, Hamas does not forbade the use of suicide attacks.


Can you provide a quote from the Hamas leaders where they unequivocally condemn the use of suicide bombings against Israelis citizens or innocent bystanders?

BTW, good luck on finding it.

12 mcconnell: Hamas is a political movement, it does not represent Islam, any more than the IRA represents the Vatican.

Scubachis:
I have yet to find anywhere in any History book about the country Palestine.
That's just semantics. The point is, the Palestinians are the people who lived on that land indigenously, for generations, and were terrorized/driven out of their land by European Zionists, not unlike the way Europeans in general have ethnically cleansed many places (including North and South America). None of the names of the various nations that were set up by the Cree, Hopi, etc. Native American tribes are known, but we do know they owned the land until the Europeans came and killed them/drove them into small reservations. It's the same thing.


What constitutes the current Isreal Nation, Country, is a land that has been conquered many, many times, dating back to the Pharoahs of Egypt.

Well, the same applies to all of Europe. Should the Celtic people today drive away the German descended Anglo-Saxons from Wales in England? Furthermore, you fail to consider that many of the Jews in that region converted to Islam or Christianity many centuries ago, and it is the descendents who are the Palestinians.


Now, why don't you hypocrites stop turning a blind eye to Israeli atrocities? Why not defend the Palestinian Christians and their rights? You don't seem to have any Christian principles at all; you've just turned Jesus into a mascot for your tribal mentality.

13 As I said before, "ideological needs". The difference is that Vatican never supported or condoned such atrocities as IRA bombings and such terror tactics in order to have their say. Here with the Hamas group and every other "political" Islamic movements aimed at Israel is over-whelmingly supported by the Islamic Muftis and Clerics who have no problems issuing edicts or fatwahs supporting the smashing Israel at whatever it takes....including suicide bombings.


Do you see Islamic (e.g. Clerics) people issuing fatwahs condemning the suicide bombing of Hamas in Israel?

No. That was my point.

A double standard I do say.

London, oh yeah. I see that they'll issue edicts. But Israel? Over their dead Muslim bodies.

14 mcconnell:

Do you see Islamic (e.g. Clerics) people issuing fatwahs condemning the suicide bombing of Hamas in Israel?

Actually, yes you do.
See for example, http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/moonlight.htm

Anyhow, you can ask for all the fatwas in the world, if you treat people like crap, bulldoze their homes, kill their young and their elderly, devastate their society, and institute apartheid-like policies (roads only for Jews, etc.) then people are going to react in desperate, angry ways. The Vatican promotes non-violence, that doesn't stop the IRA from engaging in religious violence.

Anyhow, the intellectual level of this blog is well, pathetic. I've not much more to say here, your hearts are too hard, your brains to brittle to consider anything other than what you want to believe.

15 mcconnell:

Do you see Islamic (e.g. Clerics) people issuing fatwahs condemning the suicide bombing of Hamas in Israel?

Actually, yes you do.
See for example, http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/moonlight.htm

Anyhow, you can ask for all the fatwas in the world, if you treat people like crap, bulldoze their homes, kill their young and their elderly, devastate their society, and institute apartheid-like policies (roads only for Jews, etc.) then people are going to react in desperate, angry ways. The Vatican promotes non-violence, that doesn't stop the IRA from engaging in religious violence.

Anyhow, the intellectual level of this blog is well, pathetic. I've not much more to say here, your hearts are too hard, your brains too brittle to consider anything other than what you want to believe.

16 Gee -- I've even posted some stuff praising those Muslims who condemn the attacks of the cowardly Islamist jihadi swine. Guess that wasn't sufficient for you.

I therefore believe that the best response is "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out."

17 Ah, and yet we don't see any condemnation coming from you regarding suicide bombings etc...

And no, that link you gave me, says nothing about a cleric condemning suicide bombings by Hamas. It talks about how suicide bombing is aimed at military target. But a suicide bomber on a bus isn't exactly a military target. It talks about the history of suicide bombings.

Once again, you failed to provide an example.

When it comes to war, bombing anything is a serious and very somber moment because innocent lives could potentially be at stake. However, for religious extremists and lunatics they'll rejoice over anything...even collateral damage....and waggle their tongues in the street whooping it up.

Even Japan had tried to formalize a proper warning by warning the U.S. one hour before they are to strike Pearl Harbor so they can have a chance to defend themselves honorably. It was not so...the letter was given to the President 45 minutes too late.

And no condemnation from you regarding suicide bombings? Or the driving of bomb-laden cars into groups of children?

The Vatican promotes non-violence but we don't see that in a similar vein among Islamic clerics and muftis or whoever from the top. That's the difference here buddy. That is how society sees certain ways as acceptable or not.

Once again, show me specifically a fatwah or edict condemning suicide bombings by the Hamas inside of Israel and outside.

18 It is true that the existing Muslims and their ancestors in the land now called Palestine did occupy that area for centuries but they did not own or rule it. Palestine was owned and ruled by other Muslim Countries for approximately 2000 years including Egypt, Turkey and Saudi Arabia. During that time the same area was jointly occupied by Christians and Jews for generations. Before the UN divided the area into two distinct Countries, Israel and Palestine, the area was jointly governed by a committee of Priests, Rabbis and Muslim Clerics. All lived in relative harmony until Russian and German Jews emigrated from their Countries to escape persecution, possible imprisonment or even death. As the Jewish population increased the Muslim resentment increased and then boiled over when an Israeli country was formed. The so called Palestinians would have been happy being ruled by another Muslim Country as in the past but the majority of them and the majority of Muslims in adjacent Countries could not and will not ever recognize Israel.
When the Israelis pull out of Gaza and Palestine forms a real government [Hamas or other], terrorism had better stop or Israel will declare war and Palestine will be no more.