) that Catholic bishops insist that Catholic institutions operate in a Catholic manner.
Crucifixes in the classrooms! Quick -- pass the smelling salts! And the teaching of traditional Catholic sexual morality -- the horror of it all!
Perhaps this comment from one of the MPs is the most telling.
Yes, we can't have folks who are serious about a religious faith teaching the doctrines of that faith and controlling that faith's institutions. That won't work at all. It might cause people to believe that religious faith -- or at least CHRISTIAN religious faith -- matters.
1
The Roman Catholic Church is an Irish fifth column in Britain, just like the GAA, Glasgow Celtic F.C., and the Catholic school system.
I wonder how many Labour (not SDLP) M.P.s hold Irish passports, like the late Michael O'Halloran.
Posted by: Robert Sieger at Thu Jan 17 07:07:34 2008 (Ou+oK)
2
WTF? Now we've got a British hatemonger here, too?
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Thu Jan 17 13:45:38 2008 (zywtP)
3
I am neither British nor a hate-monger. I am a U.S. citizen with a modicum of intelligence and common sense. Obviously you cannot dispute what I posted, as you did not do so, so you merely respond with typical Fenian insults. I guess you are the Irish passport holder.
RMS
Posted by: Robert Sieger at Wed Jan 23 07:04:55 2008 (OUe60)
4
The values you express are certainly not those of an American, but clearly are those of a hatemonger. Anti-Catholicism is not an American value -- nor is it the hallmark of any individual with any particular intelligence.
As for my passport, it is American -- and my last Irish ancestor (an Orangeman, I might add) arrived here some twelve decades ago.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Wed Jan 23 11:08:55 2008 (E12dt)
5
Catholic converts are often worse than the real thing. Ta.
Posted by: Robert Sieger at Thu Jan 24 08:12:19 2008 (Y45Pt)
6
Convert? Yes -- but from Catholicism, not to.
And your bigotry is so clear, given you haven't made one statement that indicates what in particular is wrong with Catholics and the Catholic Church.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Thu Jan 24 10:51:57 2008 (E12dt)
7
OK:
1) Crusades
2) Inquisition(s) -note plural
3) Anti-Semitism
4) Nazism - created by Catholics in Catholic Bavaria
5) Third Reich - most Catholic government in modern German history
6) Refusal of Church to excommunicate a single fascist or Nazi before, during and after the Holocaust
6) Censorship of American movies by (Irish-American) clergy and (Irish-American) lackeys like Quigley and Breen
7) See (http://www.tenc.net/croatia/stepinac1.htm)
for Catholic war crimes in former Yugoslavia
P.S.: If Catholicism is so great, why did you leave???
Posted by: Robert Sieger at Tue Jan 29 11:33:09 2008 (OWHq9)
8
Let's deal with those things:
1) Gee -- reaching back nearly a milennium is a bit of a stretch.
2) And most of them were very different from the image propagated by the "Black Legend" of the Spanish Inquisition (which is itself inaccurate).
3) Pre-dated the beginning of Christianity. Condemned repeatedly by the Church over the last century, including PRIOR TO WWII in papal encyclicals.
4) Except, of course, that the Nazis received fewer votes in Catholic parts of Germany than in Protestant parts of the country. Oh, and it was condemned by both Pius XI and Pius XII.
5) Because many of the Catholic parts were abandoned to the Communists following WWII and spend decades behind the Iron Curtain.
6) The Church generally does not excommunicate anyone over political issues, and there was nothing heretical about the Fascist movement in Italy. As for the Nazis, most of the top leaders were lapsed Catholics. besides -- excommunication is a penalty imposed to encourage repentance by a sinner -- I would presume that you would be complaining that those excommunicated were allowed back into the Church after they repented their actions. Nothing would make you happy on this one.
6) (since you can't count) The Church did not (and could not) censor movies. Rather, it offered guidance and gave ratings. Movie producers were free to ignore that guidance -- and suffer the financial consequences when the leaders of the Church urged their flock to stay away. You certainly don't have a problem with Catholic leaders engaging in free speech on matters of faith and morals, and with Catholics being guided by such statements, do you?
7) And war crimes by Orthodox and Muslims, too -- not to mention atheists! Proves nothing, other than that Catholics are as likely to sin as any other human being.
As for why I left, let's just say "theological differences and the integrity to not demand the Church conform to me".
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Tue Jan 29 13:14:45 2008 (E12dt)
9
And as I look back at your list, I think that most of these points, culled out of a 2000 year history, can be generally ascribed to human sinfulness and/or weakness.
I'm curious -- since there are sinners in other faiths, are do you heap equal scorn upon them? Do you insist that their leaders and members are somehow disloyal and a "fifth column"? Or is it, as I noted to begin with, a particular bigotry against Catholicism and individual Catholics that make you magnify their faults above all others?
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Tue Jan 29 13:18:21 2008 (E12dt)
10
As a good apologist, you managed to answer without saying or proving anything - well done.
As far as
Q) "I'm curious -- since there are sinners in other faiths, are do you heap equal scorn upon them? Do you insist that their leaders and members are somehow disloyal and a "fifth column"? Or is it, as I noted to begin with, a particular bigotry against Catholicism and individual Catholics that make you magnify their faults above all others?"
A) Obviously all faiths have sinners - not all faiths have been responsible for the wanton slaughter of millions, a slight distinction you choose to overlook. While I know that right now Islamic terror and fundamentalist are, and rightly so, the focus of the world's attention, this does not in any way diminish the Roman Catholic church's crimes against humanity.
Q) "The Church generally does not excommunicate anyone over political issues, and there was nothing heretical about the Fascist movement in Italy. As for the Nazis, most of the top leaders were lapsed Catholics. besides -- excommunication is a penalty imposed to encourage repentance by a sinner -- I would presume that you would be complaining that those excommunicated were allowed back into the Church after they repented their actions. Nothing would make you happy on this one."
A) The Church has excommunicated communists, free thinkers, divorcees and even non-Catholics (Queen Elizabeth I), but not fascists or Nazis. The only thing you're right about is that nothing would make me happier on this one, because it is impossible to derive happiness from such ugliness.
Let's not mention Pope Pius' attempts for an amnesty for war criminals and the Church's assistance to many Nazis to escape justice in Europe by enabling flight to South America, Spain, Canada and Australia (the last two break my heart).
As for the rest, I am not going to engage in apologetics. You went to Catholic school, not me, so I am sure you are better at it.
Posted by: Robert Sieger at Wed Jan 30 01:12:36 2008 (tFwYG)
11
Btw: Please name any papal encyclicals condemning anti-Semitism before the Second Vatican Council, if you can.
Thanks.
Posted by: Robert Sieger at Wed Jan 30 01:15:02 2008 (tFwYG)
12
Mit Breneneder Sorge -- Pius XI, 1937 (which also strongly denounces Nazism). This is the same pope who is repeatedly and publicly condemned anti-Semitism in person, stating that as Christians we are all "spiritual Semites" and that anti-Semitism is therefore unacceptable stance for any Christian to take.
There was also a planned encyclical, Humani Generis Unitas, that was not released due to his death. The draft text was made available not long ago by Pope Benedict XVI.
You also seem to forget that Pius XI spoke against fascism (at least some elements of it) in Non abbiamo bisogno.
But then again, you've admitted it yourself -- no amount of positive evidence regarding the Catholic Church will convince you of any opinion other than what you hold. A clear sign of a bigoted individual, harboring an unChristian hate in his heart.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Wed Jan 30 11:31:06 2008 (E12dt)
13
Oh, and if you want to deal with the question of Pius XII -- when you consider that "Hitler's Pope" was called "the mouthpiece of the Jews" by Hitler, the accusation of being pro-Nazi fails. But then again, when you consider that the state of Israel honored him as a hero during his life and at the time of his death, it should be clear that any attempt to argue that he was an anti-Semite falls laughably short of credibility.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Wed Jan 30 11:38:52 2008 (E12dt)
14
As far as Israeli opinion about Pius XII, the following, from Yad Vashem, is far more accurate:
"Pius XIIÂ’s reaction toward the killing of Jews during the period of the Holocaust is controversial. In 1933, as the Vatican Secretary of State, in order to maintain the rights of the Church in Germany, he signed a Concordat with the Nazi regime even at the price of recognizing the racist Nazi regime. When he was elected Pope in 1939, he put aside an encyclical against racism and anti-Semitism prepared by his predecessor.... Although reports about the assassination of Jews reached the Vatican, the Pope did not protest either by speaking out or in writing. ... In December of 1942, he did not participate in the condemnation by members of the Allies regarding the killing of Jews. Even when the Jews were being deported from Rome to Auschwitz, the Pope did not intervene. ... He maintained a neutral position except toward the end of the war when he appealed on behalf of the government of Hungary and of Slovakia. His silence and the absence of directives obliged the clergy in Europe to decide independently how they should behave toward the persecuted Jews." As for the rest of it, Israel is a country which largely depends on the kindness of strangers, especially United States. Given the disproportionate influence of Catholics in American public life, that sometimes means quid pro quo, which is why Jewish-American politicians bend over backwards for IRA terrorists seeking green cards, for example. The fact remains that the Vatican did not establish full diplomatic relations with Israel until December 30, 1993 (the Republic of Ireland followed suit). If you think Jews or Israels have forgotten this insult, you are sadly mistaken.
Posted by: Robert Sieger at Sat Feb 2 05:01:07 2008 (Ts8K2)
15
And why was Humani Generis Unitas, not released just because of his death?? Because his successor either didn't care about it or opposed it.
Had the Vatican announced that any Catholic in the Nazi Party was automatically excommunicated, there is no doubt that history would have turned out differently.
Posted by: Robert Sieger at Sat Feb 2 05:04:06 2008 (Ts8K2)
16
Yeah -- we would have had six million dead Catholics to go along with six million dead Jews.
And by the way, the Yad Vashem statement is really inaccurate.
Consider the NY Times
editorial of December 25, 1941 and the
editorial of December 25. 1942 which would show that he did, in fact, speak out against Hitler and his persecution of the Jews.
Oh, and why did he not speak out as a part of the declaration of the Allies in 1942? Could it be that the Vatican was a neutral in the war -- a legitimate place for a 1-square-mile state surrounded on all sides by one of the combatants in the war.
As the Papal Nuncio (ambassador) in Germany in the 1930s, Cardinal Pacelli denounced the Nazis, as documented in a November 14, 1923 letter in the Vatican Archives.
And let's not forget the fact that Jews were actually sheltered in the Vatican and in monasteries and convents during the war -- at the direction of the ePope himself.
Or that the Chief Rabbi of Rome, one of those saved by the actions of the Pope, coverted to Catholicism after the war and took the name Eugenio (Pius XII's baptismal name) out of respect for the efforts of the Pope and the Catholic Church on behalf of the Jews.
Or that it is estimated that a great many Jews were saved by the intervention of Catholic officials and institutions.
No one knows exactly how many Jews were hidden and saved by the Church, but according to "Three Popes and the Jews" by Jewish historian Emilio Pinchas Lapide, then consul general in Milan, "the Holy See, the nuncios, and the Catholic Church saved between 740,000 and 850,000 Jews from certain death."
Could Pius XII have said more? Perhaps, but he faced the delicate balance between more explicitly condemning a murderous system of murder he could not stop and protecting the faithful who would personally suffer for any words he spoke. Not a choice either of us would want to face, wouldn't you agree?
Oh, and why wasn't Humani Generis Unitas released. probably because it was in draft form, having been unsatisfactory to Pius XI and overtaken by the events of 1939, which you may recall included a rush into something of a military scuffle between a number of nations. But even without that document, Mit Breneneder Sorge (which I referenced and you ignored) constitutes a denunciation of both anti-Semitism and Nazism by the Vatican as early as 1937.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Sat Feb 2 06:13:54 2008 (E12dt)
17
Israel Zoller (aka Eugenio Maria Zolli) was rejected by the Jews of Rome after WWII for his behaviour during the war and that is at least one reason why he converted.
Posted by: Robert Sieger at Wed Feb 6 03:28:51 2008 (07Dqh)
18
"But even without that document, Mit Breneneder Sorge (which I referenced and you ignored) constitutes a denunciation of both anti-Semitism and Nazism by the Vatican as early as 1937."
Q: Then why did the Church sign a concordat with the Nazis, unlike other religions to my knowledge - just to protect church property??
Posted by: Robert Sieger at Wed Feb 6 03:31:20 2008 (07Dqh)
19
1) The Concordat was signed because, unlike most cases, the Pope is also is a head of state not merely the head of a religion. A Concordat is, of course, a treaty, and was designed to protect both the temporal interests of the Vatican and the spiritual interests of the Church.
Unfortunately, Hitler began violating its terms before the ink had hardly dried.
2) The Concordat was signed in 1933, right after Hitler came to power. Mit Breneneder Sorge was not issued until 4 years later, after Hitler began to carry out his monstrous plans.
3) Why was he rejected by the Jewish community as you claim? Because he (like many other Jews) accepted the protection of the Vatican in the face of death at the hands of the Nazis. Interestingly enough, this puts the lie to the claim that the Vatican and Pius XII didn't act to protect Jews from Hitler. You really can't have it both ways.
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Posted by: Click at Sat Feb 14 06:00:17 2009 (d6I1+)
Posted by: URL at Sat Feb 14 09:12:36 2009 (U7kOD)
Posted by: Enter at Sun Feb 15 12:27:42 2009 (lm8C+)
159
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Posted by: Enter at Tue Feb 17 09:55:54 2009 (Eajo1)
Posted by: topamax and hypothermia at Tue Feb 17 19:00:33 2009 (JiKY2)
161
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Posted by: Main at Wed Feb 18 22:44:44 2009 (iHS8Y)
162
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Posted by: Link at Wed Feb 18 22:45:31 2009 (iHS8Y)
Posted by: ThyncTowThymn at Wed Feb 18 22:51:44 2009 (FcG+z)
164
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Posted by: Site at Thu Feb 19 12:58:43 2009 (j0y+u)
165
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Posted by: My page at Thu Feb 19 18:13:06 2009 (fh8e1)
166
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Posted by: Homepage at Thu Feb 19 20:24:07 2009 (ivSjW)
167
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Posted by: Enter at Fri Feb 20 01:57:38 2009 (jgFrc)
168
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Posted by: Main at Fri Feb 20 04:39:11 2009 (6NPxM)
Posted by: URL at Sat Feb 21 05:11:58 2009 (2xysY)
170
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Posted by: Click at Thu Feb 26 05:08:09 2009 (72SIU)
171
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Posted by: Home at Sat Feb 28 22:32:58 2009 (bZ57j)
Posted by: Iufiwzpp at Mon May 18 06:14:58 2009 (RoXaB)
173
Tja, das Leben kann so scheisse sein, mann muss sich nur mühe geben.
Posted by: Roulette Tip at Fri Nov 13 04:50:41 2009 (F3Wqv)
174
Lustig, ich hätte garnicht gedacht das das *wirklich* so funktioniert. Komische Welt.
Posted by: Systeme at Fri Nov 13 09:42:34 2009 (F3Wqv)
175
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Posted by: hvor meget kan jeg låne at Thu Jan 10 10:30:51 2013 (TBLtc)
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