November 18, 2005
Democrats Silence Marine's Voice
In a disgraceful move this evening, the House Democrats forced the withdrawal of remarks by Rep. Jean Schmidt (R-Ohio), the least senior member of the body.
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Her offense?
Quoting a constituent in her speech -- a Marine colonel.
The fiery, emotional debate climaxed when Rep. Jean Schmidt, R-Ohio, the most junior member of the House, told of a phone call she received from a Marine colonel."He asked me to send Congress a message _ stay the course. He also asked me to send U.S. Rep. Murtha a message _ that cowards cut and run, Marines never do," Schmidt said.
The Political Teen has video of the speech.
Ultimately, Schmidt was compelled to withdraw her remarks so that the obstructionist Democrats would allow The People's business to be conducted.
This is not atypical of the Democrats and their contempt for those who serve in uniform.
In 2000, they did their damnedest to make sure their voices were silenced by getting their votes thrown out in Florida.
Today they prevent the words of a Marine from being quoted on the House floor during a debate on the conduct of the war in Iraq.
The Democrat Party's message to our men and women in uniform remains loud and clear -- "Shut up! You and your opinions do not matter to us."
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1
Actually, it was the Republicans who convinced Rep. Schmidt to withdraw her remarks. I don't understand how you can say that Democrats have contempt for those who serve in uniform when their protests over Schmidt's remarks were defending a war hero.
Posted by: Adam at Fri Nov 18 13:43:08 2005 (kdFEm)
2
No, they were defending a partisan whore who does not believe that the American military is up to completing the mission in Iraq. Murtha's past meritorious service is merely a cloak thrown over his current disgrace.
And while Schmidt was prevailed upon by the GOP leadership to withdraw the comments, it was onnly because the Democrats would not allow the nation's business to be conducted until the words of a serving Marine were dishonored and silenced by stripping them from the record.
And while Schmidt was prevailed upon by the GOP leadership to withdraw the comments, it was onnly because the Democrats would not allow the nation's business to be conducted until the words of a serving Marine were dishonored and silenced by stripping them from the record.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Fri Nov 18 14:16:10 2005 (a2u3C)
3
She violated a rule, and she got whacked upside the head by her fellow republicans, because she knew she was wrong. RWR - I respect your misguided attempt to defend the military here, but you're flat wrong on this one.
Posted by: Dan at Fri Nov 18 14:38:25 2005 (aSKj6)
4
I don't see any rules violation in the statement -- unless the Democrats want to concede that the Murtha plan falls into the category of cutting and running.
And any rule that forbids the quoting of an active duty member of the United States military onthe floor of the house is one that merits no respect whatsoever.
And any rule that forbids the quoting of an active duty member of the United States military onthe floor of the house is one that merits no respect whatsoever.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Fri Nov 18 16:15:22 2005 (tFd3x)
5
What rule, exactly, did she violate?
Posted by: Tom Alday at Fri Nov 18 18:50:15 2005 (uDboR)
6
Sorry, Tom, can't find it with just a couple minutes of research, and, since there's no real controversy here, I don't care to invest more than that on this point - but there are house rules of debate, and insulting a member is one of them. Hence, the unanimous consent to have the comments stricken.
Posted by: Dan at Sat Nov 19 02:01:44 2005 (aSKj6)
7
There is a House rule against personal attacks on other members -- but I would argue that this does not cross that line. After all, Schmidt merely delivered the message of a serving Marine (not an ex-Marine who is now simply an REMF undercutting the troops in the field) that the Marines fighting believe they can finish the job.
Unless, of course, the Democrats want to admit that Murtha's proposal is nothing less than a demand that the US military cut and run, which would implicitly (though not explicitly) lead one to the conclusion that Murtha was being called a coward.
I can't help but note, though, that the Democrats, who undercut those in uniform in Vietnam and labeled them as baby-killers fighting an immoral war, now want to make service in Vietnam the basis for declaring Murtha beyond criticism.
Unless, of course, the Democrats want to admit that Murtha's proposal is nothing less than a demand that the US military cut and run, which would implicitly (though not explicitly) lead one to the conclusion that Murtha was being called a coward.
I can't help but note, though, that the Democrats, who undercut those in uniform in Vietnam and labeled them as baby-killers fighting an immoral war, now want to make service in Vietnam the basis for declaring Murtha beyond criticism.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Sat Nov 19 03:37:03 2005 (frKlf)
Posted by: Tom Blumer at Sat Nov 19 14:40:09 2005 (4fgJx)
9
I should have noted that I blogrolled too after looking thing over a bit. You do a nice job.
Posted by: Tom Blumer at Sat Nov 19 14:44:34 2005 (4fgJx)
10
Gee, Dan, why don't you bother to address this part:
"At one point, Democrats surged toward the Republican side of the chamber, shouting for an Ohio congresswoman to take her words back."
Are there House rules against physical intimidation, Dan? Care to do a couple of minutes of research on THAT?
No controversy here?
"At one point, Democrats surged toward the Republican side of the chamber, shouting for an Ohio congresswoman to take her words back."
Are there House rules against physical intimidation, Dan? Care to do a couple of minutes of research on THAT?
No controversy here?
Posted by: Vinnie at Sat Nov 19 16:49:38 2005 (Kr6/f)
11
And, as i pointed out a few posts up, Hrold Ford had to be restrained from physically attacking Tom Tancredo, who was engaged in a private discussion about a different point on a different matter about a different bill.
Want to address that point, Dan? I have a whole separate post on it if you do.
Want to address that point, Dan? I have a whole separate post on it if you do.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Sat Nov 19 17:08:53 2005 (FYRUs)
12
Spin, spin away. Schmidt's comment speaks for itself. Keep it up guys, you're gonna love 2006.
I'll second the sentiments of my elected representative...you guys are pathetic.
I'll second the sentiments of my elected representative...you guys are pathetic.
Posted by: I_fckud_ayn_rand_too at Sat Nov 19 17:30:09 2005 (njOC+)
13
Your whole fasces of sociopaths is dead to all moral suasion. Adams would not urinate on you to save you from burning.
However, perhaps some day you'll develop a soul and at that point you will undoubtedly rue this day - since you didn't write this post from Iraq, you paradigm chickenhawk.
However, perhaps some day you'll develop a soul and at that point you will undoubtedly rue this day - since you didn't write this post from Iraq, you paradigm chickenhawk.
Posted by: Marion Delgado at Sun Nov 20 00:13:31 2005 (8Ko6I)
14
To the massachusetts voter -- my understanding is that pretty much anyone who wanted to do so got to do so -- not hat I have a whole lot of use for Randian hedonistic self-centeredness.
And as for your congressman, I think he is pathetic, seeking to shut down the words of a serving member of the US military in defense of a man who has not put on the uniform in over three decades. As far as i am concerned, the automatic respect due Murtha for his service expired a couple decades ago, and he is now simply one more REMF second-guessing the brave men and women int he field.
And as for your congressman, I think he is pathetic, seeking to shut down the words of a serving member of the US military in defense of a man who has not put on the uniform in over three decades. As far as i am concerned, the automatic respect due Murtha for his service expired a couple decades ago, and he is now simply one more REMF second-guessing the brave men and women int he field.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Sun Nov 20 04:18:35 2005 (JAIYI)
15
I see the illiterate Left has shown up to sling insults.
The simple fat is that Murtha was not called a coward -- but a Marine's words indicating that he and his comrades are prepared to fight on to victory were banned under threat of violence by the Democrats. So much for respecting the troops.
And as i have said elsewhere, I wish I was in Iraq, armed and fighting. But a reckless driver took the military career I wanted (my dad is a retired Navy officer) away from me some 25 years ago by running a stop sign and causing me permanent injuries that kept me from passing my enlistment physical (which I repeatedly took over the next few years). That I am not in Iraq is not due to cowardice. Instead i teach in a low-income, 80% minority school with gang issues as my service to my country. What do YOU do?
The simple fat is that Murtha was not called a coward -- but a Marine's words indicating that he and his comrades are prepared to fight on to victory were banned under threat of violence by the Democrats. So much for respecting the troops.
And as i have said elsewhere, I wish I was in Iraq, armed and fighting. But a reckless driver took the military career I wanted (my dad is a retired Navy officer) away from me some 25 years ago by running a stop sign and causing me permanent injuries that kept me from passing my enlistment physical (which I repeatedly took over the next few years). That I am not in Iraq is not due to cowardice. Instead i teach in a low-income, 80% minority school with gang issues as my service to my country. What do YOU do?
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Sun Nov 20 04:38:12 2005 (JAIYI)
16
just another example of false patriots using character assassination to please their decadent base of virtue free lizard republicans. a 37 yr marine veteran being called coward by this soccer mom from hell, that is so funny. We should all be very pleased with what is happening in America. People are waking up and seeing that "conservatives" are frauds, essentially cowards with theocratic irrationalities who when challenged have no backbone. America hates you. We hate your holy pharoah, we hate your lies, we hate your murderous ways (always with other peoples' blood of course...that of working class kids). Now the kids wont sign up to you military. good. you go fight the wars paste eater techie fiannce republipuke america. Rememerb, we do hate you, all you talk radio truds, you totalitarian wannabees who want people to worship the state. we see throguh you. you are exposed. you are coming to and end.
we hate you rot in hell you lying jackasses.
semper fi.
ernie
we hate you rot in hell you lying jackasses.
semper fi.
ernie
Posted by: ernie at Sun Nov 20 06:07:49 2005 (ocmaF)
17
oh and rhymes with right, you whiny pussy, no more excuses from you. you go fight that holy war deferment boy, no more past eater excuses from you little totalitarian turds. sign up jackass, go sign up and demand jenna and tonic sign up too. WE see through you. we know you lie. we know you have no soul or virtue, just another weak coward filled with fear and greed in your pathetic geek boy existence. no more excuses pussy boy, sign your medical release ass up to fight for your pharoah, we 're not going to do it anymore.
semper fi
ernie
semper fi
ernie
Posted by: ernieervin at Sun Nov 20 06:12:44 2005 (ocmaF)
18
Well, ernie, you are clearly the voice of the contemporary American Left -- inane, insane, and profane. Not to mention semi-literate at best.
I repeatedly tried to join, and was repeatedly rejected. I sought waivers -- which even when endorsed by military physicians (neighbors), the head of recruiting for the naval district (a colleague of my father) and a senior officer from the Navy's largest boot camp (my father's immediate superior) were ultimately rejected by the DoD. I have nothing to apologize for and no excuses to make -- I did all I could to get in.
And as i pointed out, I am a public high school teacher, and the son of a retired military officer. Would you care to explain where my greed enters into the picture?
And I ask you again -- what do YOU do for this country? How do YOU serve?
I repeatedly tried to join, and was repeatedly rejected. I sought waivers -- which even when endorsed by military physicians (neighbors), the head of recruiting for the naval district (a colleague of my father) and a senior officer from the Navy's largest boot camp (my father's immediate superior) were ultimately rejected by the DoD. I have nothing to apologize for and no excuses to make -- I did all I could to get in.
And as i pointed out, I am a public high school teacher, and the son of a retired military officer. Would you care to explain where my greed enters into the picture?
And I ask you again -- what do YOU do for this country? How do YOU serve?
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Sun Nov 20 07:57:39 2005 (O0MDv)
19
When Schmidt made her remarks, she didn't even realize that Jack Murtha was an ex-marine colonel who served in Vietnam.
Murtha a coward? I don't think so!
Schmidt, a dumbass? Definitely!
Murtha a coward? I don't think so!
Schmidt, a dumbass? Definitely!
Posted by: TruthSage at Sun Nov 20 11:30:24 2005 (/jB+K)
20
*** After all, Schmidt merely delivered the message of a serving Marine (not an ex-Marine who is now simply an REMF undercutting the troops in the field) ***
The "serving Marine" never faced combat in the last 30 years of duty! Likewise, the "serving Marine" played a big role in Schmidt's election victory by trying to paint an Iraq war veteran as a "traitor".
But what does anyone know... your blog, you win!
The "serving Marine" never faced combat in the last 30 years of duty! Likewise, the "serving Marine" played a big role in Schmidt's election victory by trying to paint an Iraq war veteran as a "traitor".
But what does anyone know... your blog, you win!
Posted by: Observer at Sun Nov 20 20:42:52 2005 (ZMPvz)
21
You know there are marine's and then there are MARINE'S.When I heard the "honerable"Rep.'s from Ohio comments to Rep.Murtha from another "marine "being raised by a Korean war vet I felt compled to defend Murtha but then I thought who the charge came from and to sum it up that would be almost equal to Olie North calling Gen.Smedley Butler a coward....um You war mongers and chicken hawks on the right do know who Smedley Butler is dont you...Murtha 1...Schmidt 0!!!
Posted by: JOJO at Sun Nov 20 21:01:56 2005 (9SIY/)
22
And so far as Schmidt's comments being retracted it's not censorship as much as it is the rules of the house...but I guess I cant blame her being a republican and all(see Dick, Karl and the Scootster!) rules do not apply to the right after all to even dare question our new holy war (insert veitnam referance here) would be unamerican !!!
Posted by: JOJO at Sun Nov 20 21:11:38 2005 (9SIY/)
23
Is it my understanding that combat service is not the Democrat standard for participating in the debate on decisions regarding the military, Observer?
Or that only those members of the military with the right political credentials (Democrat voting registration) can participate in the debate?
Seems to me that you folks are out to establish a military dictatorship.
Or that only those members of the military with the right political credentials (Democrat voting registration) can participate in the debate?
Seems to me that you folks are out to establish a military dictatorship.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 02:12:00 2005 (xl0F8)
24
Yeah, based upon JoJo's comments, i can't help but conclude that it is the Democrats who are fascists seeking to impose a miltary dictatorship -- provided teh military folks in question are loyal Party members.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 02:13:51 2005 (xl0F8)
25
Actually Rhymes in other words YOU NEVER SERVED!!! Take it from me ... Bush made me a liberal. I served in Iraq with the Army and the whole war is a fraud straight from the neocon cons. I hate ever being a Republican and hate the fact that I believed the lies. No more.
Why don't you do yourself a favor and take a cue and a clue from Paul Hackett, the Marine who challenged Schmidt, and turn away from the Republican scheme machine and back into the patriotic side of America.
Why don't you do yourself a favor and take a cue and a clue from Paul Hackett, the Marine who challenged Schmidt, and turn away from the Republican scheme machine and back into the patriotic side of America.
Posted by: tribalfighter at Mon Nov 21 06:21:37 2005 (8Sut0)
26
TF -- I think a more accurate way of putting it is that I WAS NOT PERMITTED TO SERVE. I did all in my power to enlist, and was turned away due to circumstances beyond my control.
And as for which side is the pro-American side, I'll take the same pro-American side as virtually every vet of every war that I know personaly -- the conservative Republican side. I respect the Democrat HACK-ett's service, but not the man.
And as for which side is the pro-American side, I'll take the same pro-American side as virtually every vet of every war that I know personaly -- the conservative Republican side. I respect the Democrat HACK-ett's service, but not the man.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 06:31:59 2005 (9lcHF)
27
Wanted to drop by and say THANK YOU for the trackback! My blogging has been very sporadic and I have long stretches of silence inbetween - I homeschool, so I am not as able to stay on top of blogosphere conversation as I would like to be - but I do notice when someone comes by.
I am putting your blog into the queue for my blog updates.
Best regards
I am putting your blog into the queue for my blog updates.
Best regards
Posted by: Sharon Ferguson at Mon Nov 21 06:44:46 2005 (p4squ)
28
Obviously you share a lot in common with your heroes Bush and Cheney. You both never served in combat and you are all partisan hacks. It is interesting how you divide Mr Hackett's name to emphasis the HACK. You are the hack from my point of view. That Marine colonel Schmidt mentioned actually worked on her campaign against Hackett. He labeled Hackett a "traitor" Did you happen to mention this one fact? NO of course not. I quit the Republican Party because that party has come to represent everything that America is not, corruption, lies, greed, etc ...
Bush is making liberals every day in the military. He made me one.
Bush is making liberals every day in the military. He made me one.
Posted by: tribalfighter at Mon Nov 21 06:49:48 2005 (8Sut0)
29
Well, TF, it seems clear that your insistance that one muct be a combat vet to serve in elective office qualifies you as a fascist.
And I did the division because that is how I view Mr. HACK-ett, after hearing several interviews with him.
And I did the division because that is how I view Mr. HACK-ett, after hearing several interviews with him.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 07:34:47 2005 (9lcHF)
30
And frankly, TF, I doubt that you served.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 07:36:27 2005 (9lcHF)
31
You learn well from your Republican masters. Where do I say "only a combat vet qualifies for elective office?" You are lying lying and still lying. LOL!!!
Now let me see the hypocrisy in you. You believe the only veterans worth something are right wing ones correct???
Now let me see the hypocrisy in you. You believe the only veterans worth something are right wing ones correct???
Posted by: tribalfighter at Mon Nov 21 08:14:13 2005 (8Sut0)
32
Given your objection to anyone but a combat veteran questioning Murtha's position on the war (or yours, for tha tmatter), it is a reasonable and logical conclusion to draw. It that isn't your position, you would not be so concerned about who served in the military or who saw combat.
And no, that is not my position -- I believe all are worth something. I simply put more faith in the ones I know.
And no, that is not my position -- I believe all are worth something. I simply put more faith in the ones I know.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 08:57:21 2005 (9lcHF)
33
Reading Schmidt's (I was tempted to put every other letter in bracket's, ala Rhymes With Right's division of Paul Hackett's name, but thought better of it) comments, there is a little bit of weasle room (though not much) to say that she wasn't calling Murtha a coward.
Hearing it, though, leaves no doubt--she was calling him a coward, and "quoting a constituent" was a ruse to give her a little more weasle room.
Hearing it, though, leaves no doubt--she was calling him a coward, and "quoting a constituent" was a ruse to give her a little more weasle room.
Posted by: didjman at Mon Nov 21 09:24:36 2005 (1I4e7)
34
"No, they were defending a partisan whore who does not believe that the American military is up to completing the mission in Iraq."
You are a partisan whore and you are calling a combat vet a partisan whore? How hypocritical. You are a disgusting. You sir are a coward. At least Mr Murtha served this country. You just sit on your comfy couch knowing you will never have to sacrifice anything. How Republican!
You are a partisan whore and you are calling a combat vet a partisan whore? How hypocritical. You are a disgusting. You sir are a coward. At least Mr Murtha served this country. You just sit on your comfy couch knowing you will never have to sacrifice anything. How Republican!
Posted by: tribalfighter at Mon Nov 21 09:25:07 2005 (8Sut0)
35
Evidence of Murtha's partisan whoredom? His unwillingness to stand like a man and vote for the very immediate withdrawal that he called for the previous day.
He wanted to tear down the President, but when push came to shove lacked the courage to do what he called for.
And as for the content of Schmidt's statement -- she quoted a maine and she quoted him accurately -- and in no way called Mutha a coward.
But I will, based upon his unwillingness to carry through on what he called for the day before. But then again, it appears there are only three honest and courageous anti-war folks in the entire House.
He wanted to tear down the President, but when push came to shove lacked the courage to do what he called for.
And as for the content of Schmidt's statement -- she quoted a maine and she quoted him accurately -- and in no way called Mutha a coward.
But I will, based upon his unwillingness to carry through on what he called for the day before. But then again, it appears there are only three honest and courageous anti-war folks in the entire House.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 09:33:38 2005 (uL9sh)
36
Murtha didn't call for immediate withdrawal. He called for withdrawal as soon as practicable. The Rs changed his resolution, then the righty bloggers howl that he wouldn't even vote for his own resolution.
Night is day. Black is white. War is peace.
Night is day. Black is white. War is peace.
Posted by: didjman at Mon Nov 21 11:10:31 2005 (1I4e7)
37
OMG!!!!You on the right never seemed to be ....uh how shall I put this , honest?
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 13:01:00 2005 (9SIY/)
38
Lost in this discussion is the cowardly way that Jean Schmidt delivered her attack--quoting a constituent. I guess she wanted some plausible deniability. Fortunately nobody is buying it.
What a loser.
What a loser.
Posted by: didjman at Mon Nov 21 13:11:56 2005 (u/50d)
39
What I realy wanna know is what kind of a marine would send a woman to insult another marine...most likely the kind that ducked every major combat operation that came down the pipe and is a G.O.P hack...why couldnt he had given Murtha the courtsie and respect to question him another way .. why even Dick said Murtha is a good american and we all know Dick is never wrong ,,RIGHT RHYMES?
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 13:14:58 2005 (9SIY/)
40
Oh and Rhymes, Gen.Smedley Butler didnt want a dictatorship ...he stoped one,but like the rest of the far right when history or heros get in your way they no longer matter do they?
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 13:27:56 2005 (9SIY/)
41
So, JoJo, you return to the contention that civilians are not allowed to disagree with members of the military, and that the civilian government must submit to the opinion of military officers?
Well, my friend, let me introduce you to a little document called the United States Constitution, and one of the concepts it contains -- the subordination of the military to civilian control. What you propose is the suborrdination of the civilian government to military control. That is found in the Constitution of Turkey, not that of the United States.
Well, my friend, let me introduce you to a little document called the United States Constitution, and one of the concepts it contains -- the subordination of the military to civilian control. What you propose is the suborrdination of the civilian government to military control. That is found in the Constitution of Turkey, not that of the United States.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 13:35:21 2005 (FZKIm)
42
RWR,
Do you really think Murtha is a coward? He's a congressman from Western PA, which is one of the most hawkish, and pro-military regions of our country. I doubt he would make the statements he made unless he felt that those statements reflected the heavily pro-military voters of his district as well. Unless he doesn't care about being re-elected, and therefore is speaking on principle (which doesn't sound very cowardly to me). If you've done any research on Murtha you'd know that he is seen as Capitol Hill's "voice of the pentagon", and has supported the military in literally hundreds of battles against the lefty hippy elites you're now lumping him in with.
Stop being so reactionary and do some sober independent thinking about this situation. You risk your credibility as a serious commentator when you go too far out on a limb, like you have been on this subject. Your talking about a guy with Purple Hearts. He goes to Walter Reed every week and visits with the wounded for crying out loud!
Do you really think Murtha is a coward? He's a congressman from Western PA, which is one of the most hawkish, and pro-military regions of our country. I doubt he would make the statements he made unless he felt that those statements reflected the heavily pro-military voters of his district as well. Unless he doesn't care about being re-elected, and therefore is speaking on principle (which doesn't sound very cowardly to me). If you've done any research on Murtha you'd know that he is seen as Capitol Hill's "voice of the pentagon", and has supported the military in literally hundreds of battles against the lefty hippy elites you're now lumping him in with.
Stop being so reactionary and do some sober independent thinking about this situation. You risk your credibility as a serious commentator when you go too far out on a limb, like you have been on this subject. Your talking about a guy with Purple Hearts. He goes to Walter Reed every week and visits with the wounded for crying out loud!
Posted by: proud lieberman voter at Mon Nov 21 13:42:22 2005 (/QB5e)
43
But Rhymes come on marines "NEVER" cut and run no mater what right, what does never mean?That was said on the house floor friday right? Or did the White house press ofice have that erased from your memory bank too?
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 13:55:15 2005 (9SIY/)
44
So you see rhymes you use G.O.P. double speak when you say its ok for the civilan to disagree with the military but when they actualy do you call them a coward...hym sounds a bit like were confilcted arnt we?
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 13:59:44 2005 (9SIY/)
45
I do not think he is a coward -- I think he is wrong.
I respect his service, but I don't think he is immune from criticism or his positions are infallible for having served on the line.
Remember, please, that Benedict Arnold and Adolph Hitler were both combat veterans. Were they and tehir positions above reproach?
Lee Harvey Oswald and Tim McVeigh both served -- is it wrong to question their actions?
Personally, I am much more supportive of a man I have met several times -- Congressman Sam Johnson (R-TX), who served 29 years in the Air Force, including 7 as a POW in Vietnam. His position? No cut-and-run at the behest of anti-war Democrats intent upon forcing the abandonment of Iraq just as tehy forced the abandonment of Vietnam.
I respect his service, but I don't think he is immune from criticism or his positions are infallible for having served on the line.
Remember, please, that Benedict Arnold and Adolph Hitler were both combat veterans. Were they and tehir positions above reproach?
Lee Harvey Oswald and Tim McVeigh both served -- is it wrong to question their actions?
Personally, I am much more supportive of a man I have met several times -- Congressman Sam Johnson (R-TX), who served 29 years in the Air Force, including 7 as a POW in Vietnam. His position? No cut-and-run at the behest of anti-war Democrats intent upon forcing the abandonment of Iraq just as tehy forced the abandonment of Vietnam.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 14:15:40 2005 (FZKIm)
46
Actually, JoJo, I think the best term for you is semi-literate and incoherant.
I think that civilians have every right (and at times a duty) to disagree with the military.
I'm trying to point out that there is ceratinly a multiplicity of opinions among those who have served and who are serving.
But I'm also trying to apply the current Demcorat standard (the one that applies when they are not calling our soldiers war criminals and baby-killers) to to the cases of those who take the exact opposite position from Murtha. Are tehy equally beyond reproach? Is disagreeing with them also an attack upon them and their service and their heroism? I don't think so -- and I also don't think that Murtha and his proposal to "cut and run" are beyond question, either.
I think that civilians have every right (and at times a duty) to disagree with the military.
I'm trying to point out that there is ceratinly a multiplicity of opinions among those who have served and who are serving.
But I'm also trying to apply the current Demcorat standard (the one that applies when they are not calling our soldiers war criminals and baby-killers) to to the cases of those who take the exact opposite position from Murtha. Are tehy equally beyond reproach? Is disagreeing with them also an attack upon them and their service and their heroism? I don't think so -- and I also don't think that Murtha and his proposal to "cut and run" are beyond question, either.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 14:22:52 2005 (FZKIm)
47
Rhymes ,if u are equating Rep. Murtha with Mc Veigh and Oswald(the later is a whole difrent can of worms all together) to quote the great Al Bundy"Lets Rock!" you are digging a hole so deep I mean look at you body of text it gets farthe and farther away from what is going on in Iraq to what so and so said ,and its not just democrats that want out its republicans to Powell didnt want to even go in but like always Dick's never wrong ..to that I say YOU DONT KNOW DICK .
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 14:23:50 2005 (9SIY/)
48
JoJo -- are you literate? I am NOT equating Murtha or his position with the actions of McVeigh and Oswald. I'm pointing out that the new Democrat standard of "the veteran is beyond reproach and cannot be challenged" is utterly absurd when applied in a consistent manner.
And all I can say, JoJo, is that I suspect your increasingly incoherrant posts make me wonder if you are not getting better acquainted with "dick" right now -- which will make your keyboard sticky if you are not careful.
And all I can say, JoJo, is that I suspect your increasingly incoherrant posts make me wonder if you are not getting better acquainted with "dick" right now -- which will make your keyboard sticky if you are not careful.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 14:30:02 2005 (FZKIm)
49
And to even bring up the Vietnam...the white as a whole are well versed in that issue..or rather how to AVOID the vietnam issue right rhymes?I mean if these people were so gung ho we would be selling big macs to charlie in ho chi min city right about now but i guess they had"OTHER PRIORITES in the 60"s"
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 14:31:11 2005 (9SIY/)
50
Rhymes1. you broght up the to not me.2...so was Murtha the second gunman on the grassy knoll,guess this really is a vast right wing cons....p.s ur the one defending guys name TOM,DICK , and SCOTER not me . So that leads me to my next question is that the REAL REASON YOU COULD NOT JOIN???Come on ,come clean...and come out...did they ask and did you tell?
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 14:37:47 2005 (9SIY/)
51
Unbelievable! Righties call a war critic a coward, then they complain about war critics trying to stifle debate.
I don't think only war veterans should be allowed to comment on wars, but then again, I also don't believe that only war supporters should be allowed to comment on wars, either, as some righties have argued.
I don't think only war veterans should be allowed to comment on wars, but then again, I also don't believe that only war supporters should be allowed to comment on wars, either, as some righties have argued.
Posted by: didjman at Mon Nov 21 14:39:08 2005 (u/50d)
52
By the way, I believe there are actually no documented cases of Vietnam vets being spat upon on their return by war protestors. This administration has figuratively spat (and shat) upon current soldiers by cutting their benefits.
Posted by: didjman at Mon Nov 21 14:42:58 2005 (u/50d)
53
The fact of the mater is didjman everone has the right to there own opinon on the war,opinin yes facts no,this whole thing was a bad neocon wet dream from the start,a mad grab for oil the fact of the mater is they(bush ,cheney and the rest of the necon chicken hawks) fucked up! They would not listen to anyone else with experence(insert FEMA referance here) from the start. To quote Barry Goldwater "there eather lying or incomptent".
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 14:47:45 2005 (9SIY/)
54
JoJo -- in 1982, I was a passenger in a Camaro which was cut off by a security company van which ran a stop sign at the Buckley Road exit from the Tri-State Tollway a few miles west of the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, where my father was stationed. I sustained injuries to my back which prevented me from passing my already scheduled induction physical, and despite therapy I was unable to pass the physical during later attempts to join the military.
And by the way -- I never raised the spitting issue.
As for my sexuality, it is unquestionably heterosexual -- my wife will confirm that for you (although she will likely note my fondness for Broadway showtunes made her wonder when we first met).
And by the way -- I never raised the spitting issue.
As for my sexuality, it is unquestionably heterosexual -- my wife will confirm that for you (although she will likely note my fondness for Broadway showtunes made her wonder when we first met).
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 14:56:51 2005 (FZKIm)
55
Or, in JoJo's case, illiterate.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 14:58:28 2005 (FZKIm)
56
RWM,
I'm glad u don't think Congressman Murtha's a coward. Maybe you can take back your comments from earlier when you called him a partisan whore. If u take a look at his voting record he's pretty moderate, and reaches across the aisle quite a bit. Again, there's no way he would keep getting reelected if his moderate bona fides weren't solid. He's doesn't deserve to be called a whore.
Comparing him to Hitler and McVeigh also goes too far, and there's not much need to take up too cyberspace pointing out why. Sometimes I think you write controversial things just too get people riled up (you wouldn't do that would you?).
I guess the main point of the debate here, aside from blowing off steam after a hard days work, would be whether we should keep fighting in Iraq or not. Obviously people on both sides have strong feelings. Personally I think we should stay the course. But when a guy like Murtha says what he said, you've got to listen to the man, hear him out. He talks to folks at all levels of the service. You know he wouldn't say what he said if the people he talks to said everything was a-ok.
I think the Bush administration needs to put more troops on the ground, provide more strategic input, not less (which appears to be the case, from what I hear Rumsfeld has pretty much spends most of his time on military transformation issues), and show more progress on reconstruction. I want to hear things like: Oil production is up vs. pre war levels, unemployment is down "x" percent, School attendance is up "x" percent, and overall GDP growth is "x". Then I'll feel a little better about things.
Most importantly I want to hear that the Iraqi military consists of more than one Division, which was disclosed by General Casey at his last hearing before the Senate a month or so ago, (after hearing at previous hearings the Iraqi army was up to 3 divisions, all of a sudden they lose two divisions, what the hell is that about).
Furthermore, this Iraq issue is making all other initiatives difficult. The President's recent trip to South America was a disaster, they performed like early first termers, not experienced second termers. And the recent trip to China wasn't exactly a reenactment of Nixon's trip.
So needles to say I'm not so much in disagreement with the policies being pursued, but the execution of the policy.
I'm glad u don't think Congressman Murtha's a coward. Maybe you can take back your comments from earlier when you called him a partisan whore. If u take a look at his voting record he's pretty moderate, and reaches across the aisle quite a bit. Again, there's no way he would keep getting reelected if his moderate bona fides weren't solid. He's doesn't deserve to be called a whore.
Comparing him to Hitler and McVeigh also goes too far, and there's not much need to take up too cyberspace pointing out why. Sometimes I think you write controversial things just too get people riled up (you wouldn't do that would you?).
I guess the main point of the debate here, aside from blowing off steam after a hard days work, would be whether we should keep fighting in Iraq or not. Obviously people on both sides have strong feelings. Personally I think we should stay the course. But when a guy like Murtha says what he said, you've got to listen to the man, hear him out. He talks to folks at all levels of the service. You know he wouldn't say what he said if the people he talks to said everything was a-ok.
I think the Bush administration needs to put more troops on the ground, provide more strategic input, not less (which appears to be the case, from what I hear Rumsfeld has pretty much spends most of his time on military transformation issues), and show more progress on reconstruction. I want to hear things like: Oil production is up vs. pre war levels, unemployment is down "x" percent, School attendance is up "x" percent, and overall GDP growth is "x". Then I'll feel a little better about things.
Most importantly I want to hear that the Iraqi military consists of more than one Division, which was disclosed by General Casey at his last hearing before the Senate a month or so ago, (after hearing at previous hearings the Iraqi army was up to 3 divisions, all of a sudden they lose two divisions, what the hell is that about).
Furthermore, this Iraq issue is making all other initiatives difficult. The President's recent trip to South America was a disaster, they performed like early first termers, not experienced second termers. And the recent trip to China wasn't exactly a reenactment of Nixon's trip.
So needles to say I'm not so much in disagreement with the policies being pursued, but the execution of the policy.
Posted by: proud lieberman voter at Mon Nov 21 14:59:39 2005 (/QB5e)
57
I mean look at this,thank god for Murtha his war record is teflon,and see what the far right has tried to do to him,question the war and you get compard to Oswald, Mc Veigh ,Hitler and BenaDICK Arnold.But Dicky and the boys while on the last leg of there "FAR EAST BETER LATE THEN NEVER 35 YR'S AFTER THE FACT "tour realized they had to call off the g.o.p's hack attack dogs . Murtha is not a pinko lib, hes more like John Wayne and it just wouldnt fly, I mean how stupid did the hack from Ohio look on friday..and anyone that defended her by that matter?....P.S. sorry about your back,but that does not explan away the show tunes.
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 15:07:16 2005 (9SIY/)
58
Lieberman voter--
1) I'll take back the whore comment -- and leave it at hack.
2) My use of the examples you cite was intended NOT to equate Murtha with the evil individuals in question, but rather to point to the absurdity of the "how dare you questiona a veteran" standard being proposed by the Left.
3)as for the rest of your comment, we are in agreement.
1) I'll take back the whore comment -- and leave it at hack.
2) My use of the examples you cite was intended NOT to equate Murtha with the evil individuals in question, but rather to point to the absurdity of the "how dare you questiona a veteran" standard being proposed by the Left.
3)as for the rest of your comment, we are in agreement.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 15:08:01 2005 (FZKIm)
59
And Right,its not that Murtha is being questioned but the way its being done,rather than talk about the issue he put foward he was attacked..and by hack tag team ,when I did a search on who attacked him I quickly saw that comparing Murtha to Bubp would be like comparing John Kennedy to ..oh say Dan Quale,oups did I just type that?
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 15:22:41 2005 (9SIY/)
60
JoJo -- i am comparing Murtha to them only in terms of the fact that they served in the military and (in two of the cases) were decorated for heroism. NOTHING ELSE.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 15:28:33 2005 (FZKIm)
61
Well thats one Hella of a comparsion,and I think evan grand master Dick would avoid that one(he is good at aoiding things ant he?).
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 15:39:04 2005 (9SIY/)
62
Given that illiterate morons like you would twist the comparison in rder to distort the point, I suspect that Vice President Cheney would not make such a comparison.
I, on the other hand, have no problem making the comparison -- it is pertinent to the discussion.
I, on the other hand, have no problem making the comparison -- it is pertinent to the discussion.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Nov 21 15:52:29 2005 (FZKIm)
63
Hey, RWR, are you able to post anything without resorting to ad hominem attacks?
It's clear that not only is Jojo literate and not a moron, he likely is far more intelligent than you are--able to look at complex situations and understand their complexitiy, not having to resort to extreme simplification.
It's a typical righty tactic to throw out an outrageous comparison, then be outraged that anyone would take offense at the outrageous comparison. That's exactly the Jean Schmidt tactic.
It's clear that not only is Jojo literate and not a moron, he likely is far more intelligent than you are--able to look at complex situations and understand their complexitiy, not having to resort to extreme simplification.
It's a typical righty tactic to throw out an outrageous comparison, then be outraged that anyone would take offense at the outrageous comparison. That's exactly the Jean Schmidt tactic.
Posted by: didjman at Mon Nov 21 18:20:37 2005 (1I4e7)
64
didjman you see the lie ,I see the lie and the vast majority of the american people see it (Bush'es polls) but the far right or for that matter the far anything would have trouble not only seeing but excepting the truth hence the term far.That being said Rep .Murtha is not a hack,if one would refer to the body of his speach much to do with the welfare of our troops(personal and vehical armor new wepons ect) not the type of stuff that would come from a far left hack.But insted of addressing this our dear leader and his gang of chicken hawks tried to attack him,and you have the end result,its hard to defend lies ant it Rhymes.
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 18:37:24 2005 (9SIY/)
65
Funny that rhymes would bring up americas favorit lone nut this being 11/22 and all fact of the mater is that it looks like oswald did not wack jfk buddy so here we have another example of neocons unable to back up there mouths with history...and if u really belive that there was no consp,w/jfk u r alone on that one...see house select commite on assi..
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 19:13:05 2005 (9SIY/)
66
And Rhymes if you had such a hard on to serve in the sprit of the"honerable rep" from ohio's mode of sending messages the marine who raised me said you could have and mabey still join the french forien leagon....wich is still more than Dicky the great ever did ,but we can understand if you have "other priorties".
Posted by: Jojo at Mon Nov 21 19:23:16 2005 (9SIY/)
67
Just found out that Jean Schmidt lied about the quote itself:
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051122/NEWS01/511220352
"Danny Bubp, a freshman state representative who is a colonel in the Marine Corps Reserve, told The Enquirer that he never mentioned Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., by name when talking with Schmidt, and he would never call a fellow Marine a coward.
"The unfortunate thing about all of that is that her choice of words on the floor of the House - I don't know, she's a freshman, she had one minute.
"Unfortunately, they came out wrong," said Bubp, R-West Union."
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051122/NEWS01/511220352
"Danny Bubp, a freshman state representative who is a colonel in the Marine Corps Reserve, told The Enquirer that he never mentioned Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., by name when talking with Schmidt, and he would never call a fellow Marine a coward.
"The unfortunate thing about all of that is that her choice of words on the floor of the House - I don't know, she's a freshman, she had one minute.
"Unfortunately, they came out wrong," said Bubp, R-West Union."
Posted by: ccrevival at Tue Nov 22 06:03:15 2005 (GRujN)
68
I wonder how many voters in that district are smacking their heads and saying "damn, I should have voted for Paul Hackett!"
Posted by: Didjman at Tue Nov 22 11:01:08 2005 (1I4e7)
69
Probably not many -- and not nearly as many as there are Americans who support her.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Tue Nov 22 13:03:44 2005 (Phdzx)
70
if so manny people support her why is she lating so low??
Posted by: Jojo at Tue Nov 22 14:21:44 2005 (9SIY/)
71
if so manny people support her why is she laying so low??
Posted by: Jojo at Tue Nov 22 14:21:55 2005 (9SIY/)
72
you know I really cant blame that scary bitch u see she is a republican , and all you have to do is look at recent history,they realy dot care who they attack,Iraq,the cia, even john mcain,
Posted by: Jojo at Tue Nov 22 14:25:34 2005 (9SIY/)
73
you know I really cant blame that scary bitch u see she is a republican , and all you have to do is look at recent history,they realy dont care who they attack,Iraq,the cia, even john mcain,
Posted by: Jojo at Tue Nov 22 14:25:49 2005 (9SIY/)
74
Because the best way to stop bad press is to not feed the beast.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Tue Nov 22 15:20:44 2005 (Phdzx)
75
Oh, JoJo -- would you quit beating your keyboard (and anything else you may be beating), because it is making you double post on my site.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Tue Nov 22 15:22:37 2005 (Phdzx)
76
sorry
Posted by: Jojo at Tue Nov 22 15:49:55 2005 (9SIY/)
77
but as far as bad press goes hows about just thinking about what you say and who you say it to if your...well infront of the ENTIRE WORLD!!!!!!!!Come on Rhyme bitchy schmidty has even backed way away from what she said.
Posted by: Jojo at Tue Nov 22 16:17:30 2005 (9SIY/)
78
What she said was perfectly acceptable and accurate in my book -- and she did not impugn Murtha's physical courage under fire.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Tue Nov 22 16:23:24 2005 (AOU2g)
79
thats funny what she said she later had stricken from the record....who's the coward now?
Posted by: Jojo at Tue Nov 22 16:26:28 2005 (9SIY/)
80
and even the"marine"who gave her the message has to borrow there term"cut and run"from what he said...these people are running faster than a bunch of french men from a arab call to prayrer.
Posted by: Jojo at Tue Nov 22 16:28:29 2005 (9SIY/)
81
She asked to have it stricken in the interest of having the People's business continue -- the Demoicrats had brought the House to a standstill -- and one evenhad to be restrained from committing a violent assault against an innocent bystander.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Tue Nov 22 16:45:11 2005 (AOU2g)
82
less we forget thou how honest and forthright she was after a 10 minute resess look the reason why the dems were so up in arms is there are peopleDying everyday in a country that our dear leader knew little about....the leadership in the exoffice i bankrupt both moraly and literaly they know nothing of war and the cost of it...when was the last time CURRIOUS GEORGE AND GRAND MASTER WENT TO WALTER REED TO SEE THE FRUITS OF THER WAR FIRST HAND...NEVER THATS RIGHT FUCKING NEVER THEY DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING BUT THERE OWN WALLETS WHY IS IT THAN IF WE ARE AT WAR FOR THE FIRST TIME IN AMERICAN HISTORY WE HAVE TAX CUTS...WHEN SOLIDERS DONT HAVE THE TOOLS GO TO WAR UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!DEFEND THAT U HACK BAstard!!! Im Jojo and I approved this message!
Posted by: Jojo at Tue Nov 22 16:57:53 2005 (9SIY/)
83
I'm just curious, JoJo -- do you have a life?
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Tue Nov 22 17:46:23 2005 (AOU2g)
84
so i see you are throwing in the white towel (attacking me and not the issue) you learn well from schmidt but like the scmidster the truth and facts of the mater have forced you to a personal attack....yes I do and I dont sit around thinking and bragging about all I could have done if only I could have passed a army phys( though i suspect thats not the part of the exam u had trouble with hint "tell the docter why u picture ur mommy naked again?")Way to cut and run dude schmidt and bubp wld be proud :+)
Posted by: Jojo at Tue Nov 22 18:05:12 2005 (9SIY/)
85
Cutting and running? Nope -- that is the Democrat Party's role in America.
Calling it a night because I have to take my wife for an MRI tomorrow and probably ought to get some sleep tonight? Yeah.
I merely asked the question above because you are obviously sitting and waiting for responses to your semi-literate comments. You seem to have reached the point of obsession with this site, and are more interested in insulting me than in actually engaging in dialogue.
Calling it a night because I have to take my wife for an MRI tomorrow and probably ought to get some sleep tonight? Yeah.
I merely asked the question above because you are obviously sitting and waiting for responses to your semi-literate comments. You seem to have reached the point of obsession with this site, and are more interested in insulting me than in actually engaging in dialogue.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Tue Nov 22 18:17:45 2005 (AOU2g)
86
Well Rhymes it seems even that "Marine colonel" has said the conversation didn't happen the way Scmidt said it did. Obviously somebody is lying. Now why is that such a suprise for the GOP? Go back to your comfy couch and think about those new developments.
Posted by: tribalfighter at Wed Nov 23 02:18:02 2005 (8Sut0)
87
If Schmidt was not accurate in her quote, then I condemn that inaccuracy.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Wed Nov 23 02:24:30 2005 (3wvNJ)
88
you know chicken hawks love inaccuarys...from iraq to south carolina,the chicken neocon (bowel)movmemt as a whole is commited to there agenda...poor jean schmidt she is now gonna find out just how close her gop hacks are cause there cuttin and runnin on her,,leave it to a c hawk to find comfort in lies,what i cant understand rhymes is the banner quot on ur page about religon...dosent the bible say anything about truth and love for our enimes, if jesus was walked the face of the earth today he would be called a coward on the house floor too
Posted by: Jojo at Wed Nov 23 13:13:42 2005 (9SIY/)
89
Rhymes With Right: "And as i have said elsewhere, I wish I was in Iraq, armed and fighting. But a reckless driver took the military career I wanted (my dad is a retired Navy officer) away from me some 25 years ago by running a stop sign and causing me permanent injuries that kept me from passing my enlistment physical (which I repeatedly took over the next few years). That I am not in Iraq is not due to cowardice. Instead i teach in a low-income, 80% minority school with gang issues as my service to my country. What do YOU do?"
Rhymes With Right: "I repeatedly tried to join, and was repeatedly rejected. I sought waivers -- which even when endorsed by military physicians (neighbors), the head of recruiting for the naval district (a colleague of my father) and a senior officer from the Navy's largest boot camp (my father's immediate superior) were ultimately rejected by the DoD. I have nothing to apologize for and no excuses to make -- I did all I could to get in."
Rhymes With Right: "I think a more accurate way of putting it is that I WAS NOT PERMITTED TO SERVE. I did all in my power to enlist, and was turned away due to circumstances beyond my control."
Rhymes With Right: "in 1982, I was a passenger in a Camaro which was cut off by a security company van which ran a stop sign at the Buckley Road exit from the Tri-State Tollway a few miles west of the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, where my father was stationed. I sustained injuries to my back which prevented me from passing my already scheduled induction physical, and despite therapy I was unable to pass the physical during later attempts to join the military."
Me thinks thou doth protest too much, Rhymes With Right! That happens most often when someone lies through their teeth.
Rhymes With Right: "I repeatedly tried to join, and was repeatedly rejected. I sought waivers -- which even when endorsed by military physicians (neighbors), the head of recruiting for the naval district (a colleague of my father) and a senior officer from the Navy's largest boot camp (my father's immediate superior) were ultimately rejected by the DoD. I have nothing to apologize for and no excuses to make -- I did all I could to get in."
Rhymes With Right: "I think a more accurate way of putting it is that I WAS NOT PERMITTED TO SERVE. I did all in my power to enlist, and was turned away due to circumstances beyond my control."
Rhymes With Right: "in 1982, I was a passenger in a Camaro which was cut off by a security company van which ran a stop sign at the Buckley Road exit from the Tri-State Tollway a few miles west of the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, where my father was stationed. I sustained injuries to my back which prevented me from passing my already scheduled induction physical, and despite therapy I was unable to pass the physical during later attempts to join the military."
Me thinks thou doth protest too much, Rhymes With Right! That happens most often when someone lies through their teeth.
Posted by: Chet at Mon Mar 13 14:59:37 2006 (BJYNn)
90
I've been repeatedly challenged, and I've repeatedly stated the truth. Whetehr a little piss-ant son-of-a-bitch like you chooses to believe me is of no real consequence.
Suffice it to say that I have attempted to join the military, and, having had that path barred to me, choose to serve this country as a teacher ) following in the footsteps of the many educators in my family). My conscience is clear.
Suffice it to say that I have attempted to join the military, and, having had that path barred to me, choose to serve this country as a teacher ) following in the footsteps of the many educators in my family). My conscience is clear.
Posted by: Rhymes With Right at Mon Mar 13 16:41:53 2006 (qgsjM)
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